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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on Mundus Germaniae Romanae</title>
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	<link>http://blog.melroch.se/alternate-history/thoughts-on-mundus-germaniae-romanae/</link>
	<description>Random ideas and thoughts of Benct Philip Jonsson</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 09:04:47 +0200</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: melroch</title>
		<link>http://blog.melroch.se/alternate-history/thoughts-on-mundus-germaniae-romanae/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>melroch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.melroch.se/?p=13#comment-17</guid>
		<description>&lt;h2&gt;Titles of rulers&lt;/h2&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I want &lt;strong&gt;Julianus&lt;/strong&gt; (sc. the Apostate) to run Germania,
because he was the one among the Constantinians who
averted a Germanic invasion across the Rhine OTL, so I
think it would be a nice touch if he does the same at the
Elbe in MGR.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;dl&gt;
&lt;dt&gt;Dux&lt;/dt&gt;
&lt;dd&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;was a somewhat lower administrative
and/or military title in the late Empire:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;Since Diocletian&#039;s Tetrarchy reform, the provinces
  were organized into dioceses each administered by a
  Vicarius. As with the Governors, the Vicarius was
  assisted by a Dux. This Dux was superior to all of
  other Duces within the dioceses and when the Vicarius
  called the legions of the dioceses into action, all
  of the legions were at the Dux&#039;s command. An example
  would be the Dux per Gallia which was the Dux of the
  Dioceses of Gaul. The office of Dux was, in turn,
  made subject to the Magister Militum of his
  respective Praetorian prefecture, and above him to
  the Emperor. &lt;sup id=&quot;fnref:Dux&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#fn:Dux&quot; rel=&quot;footnote&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I would not rule out that the &lt;em&gt;Dux per Diocesem&lt;/em&gt; might
come to the fore; it might even be likely!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;/dd&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;dt&gt;Princeps&lt;/dt&gt;
&lt;dd&gt;Since there were lower-ranking &lt;em&gt;duces&lt;/em&gt; the &lt;em&gt;Duces per
Dioceses&lt;/em&gt; might become called &lt;em&gt;Principes&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;/dd&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;dt&gt;Magister&lt;/dt&gt;
&lt;dd&gt;as short for &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister_Militum.&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Magister Militum&lt;/a&gt; may be what we&#039;re
looking for.&lt;/dd&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;dt&gt;Rex&lt;/dt&gt;
&lt;dd&gt;should, I think, be confined to the actually &#039;barbarian&#039;
states -- and there will be some of those! --,
although &lt;em&gt;Basileus&lt;/em&gt; did come to renewed currency
in the East.&lt;/dd&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;dt&gt;Augustus = Figure-head Emperor&lt;/dt&gt;
&lt;dd&gt;I think the rulers of the Western Dioceses would
ultimately bestow this r&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<h2>Titles of rulers</h2>

<p>I want <strong>Julianus</strong> (sc. the Apostate) to run Germania,
because he was the one among the Constantinians who
averted a Germanic invasion across the Rhine <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym>, so I
think it would be a nice touch if he does the same at the
Elbe in <acronym title="Mundus Germaniae Romanae">MGR</acronym>.</p>

<p>&lt;</p>

<p>dl>
<dt>Dux</dt>
<dd></dd></p>

<p>was a somewhat lower administrative
and/or military title in the late Empire:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Since Diocletian&#8217;s Tetrarchy reform, the provinces
  were organized into dioceses each administered by a
  Vicarius. As with the Governors, the Vicarius was
  assisted by a Dux. This Dux was superior to all of
  other Duces within the dioceses and when the Vicarius
  called the legions of the dioceses into action, all
  of the legions were at the Dux&#8217;s command. An example
  would be the Dux per Gallia which was the Dux of the
  Dioceses of Gaul. The office of Dux was, in turn,
  made subject to the Magister Militum of his
  respective Praetorian prefecture, and above him to
  the Emperor. <sup id="fnref:Dux"><a href="#fn:Dux" rel="footnote" rel="nofollow">1</a></sup></p>
</blockquote>

<p>I would not rule out that the <em>Dux per Diocesem</em> might
come to the fore; it might even be likely!</p>

<p></p>

<p><dt>Princeps</dt>
<dd>Since there were lower-ranking <em>duces</em> the <em>Duces per
Dioceses</em> might become called <em>Principes</em>.</dd></p>

<p><dt>Magister</dt>
<dd>as short for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister_Militum." rel="nofollow">Magister Militum</a> may be what we&#8217;re
looking for.</dd></p>

<p><dt>Rex</dt>
<dd>should, I think, be confined to the actually &#8216;barbarian&#8217;
states &#8212; and there will be some of those! &#8212;,
although <em>Basileus</em> did come to renewed currency
in the East.</dd></p>

<p><dt>Augustus = Figure-head Emperor</dt>
<dd>I think the rulers of the Western Dioceses would
ultimately bestow this r</dd></p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://blog.melroch.se/alternate-history/thoughts-on-mundus-germaniae-romanae/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.melroch.se/?p=13#comment-11</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It has just occured to me, that if the Empire&#039;s border is at the Elbe, and it is Romano-German(ian)s who invade Britannia, they will not be Anglians (they lived further along the coast).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If you limit yourself to OTL invaders from within the ATL empire, you&#039;re left with Saxons and Frisians.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has just occured to me, that if the Empire&#8217;s border is at the Elbe, and it is Romano-German(ian)s who invade Britannia, they will not be Anglians (they lived further along the coast).</p>

<p>If you limit yourself to <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym> invaders from within the <acronym title="Alternate TimeLine">ATL</acronym> empire, you&#8217;re left with Saxons and Frisians.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://blog.melroch.se/alternate-history/thoughts-on-mundus-germaniae-romanae/comment-page-1/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.melroch.se/?p=13#comment-10</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Is this why you want IVLIVS running Germania, because it is only one behind AVGVSTVS?   ;)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;d have thoght there was a good case for PRINCEPS - I think that was an old title for the Emperors themselves, before they got grander ideas.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Or perhaps someone will like the idea of being DUX. Or maybe they will look North, or East, and realise anybody who is anybody these days is called REX (or perhaps *CUNINGU will sound better to their Germanic-ish ears. The Fins borrowed Kunningaz after all, and Kingship is a particularly German thing in these times).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;DOMINU would probably be taking things too far, I don&#039;t think Augustus would stand for that, even if he was just a figurehead.  The Pope might have something to say about it too.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this why you want IVLIVS running Germania, because it is only one behind AVGVSTVS?   ;)</p>

<p>I&#8217;d have thoght there was a good case for PRINCEPS - I think that was an old title for the Emperors themselves, before they got grander ideas.</p>

<p>Or perhaps someone will like the idea of being DUX. Or maybe they will look North, or East, and realise anybody who is anybody these days is called REX (or perhaps *CUNINGU will sound better to their Germanic-ish ears. The Fins borrowed Kunningaz after all, and Kingship is a particularly German thing in these times).</p>

<p>DOMINU would probably be taking things too far, I don&#8217;t think Augustus would stand for that, even if he was just a figurehead.  The Pope might have something to say about it too.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://blog.melroch.se/alternate-history/thoughts-on-mundus-germaniae-romanae/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.melroch.se/?p=13#comment-8</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You&#039;re leaning against an open door there...  The other big problem with major divergences is that change is cumulative, and the further away from form OTL you get, the harder events become to predict, and since language is affected by history and culture, that impacts on the conlang.  As a lingusitic project, my view is the althistory is only relevant insofar as it is needed to give some context/bones to the language - how it came to be and roughly where it is going, so the althistory can be kept nice and fuzzy from my point of view.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My knowledge of Roman history is only rudimentary, but what you say seems to make sense.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As an alternative to a cohort of Emperors, I could also imagine a scenario where you have the OTL E/W split of the empire, but with a weak western Emperor becoming purely a figurehead as the various provinces assert more and more defacto indepndence from central control and gradually develop into separate states under the control of their respective Proconsuls. Sort of an early &quot;Holy Roman Empire&quot; (no pun intended). One can imagine a state of long term, low intensity civil war as the leaders of different provinces &#039;act only to ensure the security and stability of the empire/emperor&#039; (i.e. vie for greater control for themselves and to keep other provinces in their place).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Perhaps instead of some of the babrian invasions we &#039;lose&#039; in the ATL,we find instead the Romano-Franks find it necessary to march on Gallia, or the Lombards on Italia, to &quot;restore the Emperor&#039;s authority&quot; or somesuch.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Or you could have it the other way round, Britain returns to a celtic/pagan religion, and Germania launches a missionary or military &#039;crusade&#039; to restore them to the Roman Church.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Another alternative, the British Roman leader tires of the pretence of being a Roman &#039;province&#039; and declares himself Emeperor of Brittannia and refuses to recognise Rome&#039;s sovereignty, prompting an invasion and occupation from NW Europe to bring them back under Imperial &#039;control&#039;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The one that migration that would be quite different and would need to be considered I think would be the Burgundians. We can explain away Franks moving into Northern Gaul, or Angles to Britain using something like discussed above. I don&#039;t think any of the other migrations would affect the geographical area we are looking at, so we can just leave it all vague and fuzzy until someone decides they want to look at those areas in more detail.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There may even be no Northern French at all, but a larger Romano-Franconian area providing an ATL analogue to OTL-Dutch/Flemish that also includes OTL-Wallonian, -Picardian etc.  All depends on what those Franks and Burgundians do!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My thoughts on possible language regions are on
&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.melroch.se/?attachment_id=17&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this sketch&lt;/a&gt; (the OTL political frontiers obviously have no bearing here, but serve as a familiar reference). I could forsee:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Danish speaking areas include Schleswig and Holstein&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;An area corresponding roughly to OTL Pomerania which would speak either Swedish, or some NGmc language derived from it (this area was under a lot of Scandinavian influence OTL, it seems likely that without a (North) German state it would be even more so in the ATL)&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;A NRom area split into three main parts that are Romance analogies to English, Dutch/Low German, and High German. There may also be a Burgundian derived language in this area?&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;A Southern French/Provencal based language (WRom)&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Not too sure what would be in the OTL Brandenburg/Saxony area. Maybe actually &#039;Saxon&#039; ( a bizarre teutonic language that doesn&#039;t seem to fit in with Swedish, Pommeranian et al, and leads ATL-linguists to imagine a possible prehistoric N/W/E split of the teutonic languages, rather than the apparent N/S split), or this area might in fact have become Polish (or Sorbian!?)&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Brithenig would slot very nicely into this ATL as an alternative to Welsh. If the Romans never left Britain, the chance of Welsh bing a Roman tongue would increase a lot I&#039;d say.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Pete&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re leaning against an open door there&#8230;  The other big problem with major divergences is that change is cumulative, and the further away from form <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym> you get, the harder events become to predict, and since language is affected by history and culture, that impacts on the <acronym title="constructed language">conlang</acronym>.  As a lingusitic project, my view is the althistory is only relevant insofar as it is needed to give some context/bones to the language - how it came to be and roughly where it is going, so the althistory can be kept nice and fuzzy from my point of view.</p>

<p>My knowledge of Roman history is only rudimentary, but what you say seems to make sense.</p>

<p>As an alternative to a cohort of Emperors, I could also imagine a scenario where you have the <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym> E/W split of the empire, but with a weak western Emperor becoming purely a figurehead as the various provinces assert more and more defacto indepndence from central control and gradually develop into separate states under the control of their respective Proconsuls. Sort of an early &#8220;Holy Roman Empire&#8221; (no pun intended). One can imagine a state of long term, low intensity civil war as the leaders of different provinces &#8216;act only to ensure the security and stability of the empire/emperor&#8217; (i.e. vie for greater control for themselves and to keep other provinces in their place).</p>

<p>Perhaps instead of some of the babrian invasions we &#8216;lose&#8217; in the <acronym title="Alternate TimeLine">ATL</acronym>,we find instead the Romano-Franks find it necessary to march on Gallia, or the Lombards on Italia, to &#8220;restore the Emperor&#8217;s authority&#8221; or somesuch.</p>

<p>Or you could have it the other way round, Britain returns to a celtic/pagan religion, and Germania launches a missionary or military &#8216;crusade&#8217; to restore them to the Roman Church.</p>

<p>Another alternative, the British Roman leader tires of the pretence of being a Roman &#8216;province&#8217; and declares himself Emeperor of Brittannia and refuses to recognise Rome&#8217;s sovereignty, prompting an invasion and occupation from NW Europe to bring them back under Imperial &#8216;control&#8217;.</p>

<p>The one that migration that would be quite different and would need to be considered I think would be the Burgundians. We can explain away Franks moving into Northern Gaul, or Angles to Britain using something like discussed above. I don&#8217;t think any of the other migrations would affect the geographical area we are looking at, so we can just leave it all vague and fuzzy until someone decides they want to look at those areas in more detail.</p>

<p>There may even be no Northern French at all, but a larger Romano-Franconian area providing an <acronym title="Alternate TimeLine">ATL</acronym> analogue to <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym>-Dutch/Flemish that also includes <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym>-Wallonian, -Picardian etc.  All depends on what those Franks and Burgundians do!</p>

<p>My thoughts on possible language regions are on
<a href="http://blog.melroch.se/?attachment_id=17" rel="nofollow">this sketch</a> (the <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym> political frontiers obviously have no bearing here, but serve as a familiar reference). I could forsee:</p>

<ul>
<li>Danish speaking areas include Schleswig and Holstein</li>
<li>An area corresponding roughly to <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym> Pomerania which would speak either Swedish, or some NGmc language derived from it (this area was under a lot of Scandinavian influence <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym>, it seems likely that without a (North) German state it would be even more so in the <acronym title="Alternate TimeLine">ATL</acronym>)</li>
<li>A NRom area split into three main parts that are Romance analogies to English, Dutch/Low German, and High German. There may also be a Burgundian derived language in this area?</li>
<li>A Southern French/Provencal based language (WRom)</li>
<li>Not too sure what would be in the <acronym title="Our/Ordinary TimeLine">OTL</acronym> Brandenburg/Saxony area. Maybe actually &#8216;Saxon&#8217; ( a bizarre teutonic language that doesn&#8217;t seem to fit in with Swedish, Pommeranian et al, and leads <acronym title="Alternate TimeLine">ATL</acronym>-linguists to imagine a possible prehistoric N/W/E split of the teutonic languages, rather than the apparent N/S split), or this area might in fact have become Polish (or Sorbian!?)</li>
</ul>

<p>Brithenig would slot very nicely into this <acronym title="Alternate TimeLine">ATL</acronym> as an alternative to Welsh. If the Romans never left Britain, the chance of Welsh bing a Roman tongue would increase a lot I&#8217;d say.</p>

<p>Pete</p>]]></content:encoded>
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